Obama Supporters: Our Standards, and a Call to Unite. Update w/ Statement

To my fellow supporters of Barack Obama, I don't mean to sound so dramatic.  I really don't.  However, we are in the minority here.  That's fine.  None of us are here because we prefer to hear only what we want to hear.  None of us are here for the sake of nay-saying or arguing.

We're here because we want to represent our the candidate that we prefer.  The campaign that we prefer.  The movement that we may consider ourselves apart of. It's a movement that has been built from the ground up with the understanding that alone any one of us are all but entirely insignificant. Together, we are far from insignificant.

As we are here representing the one that we think can best argue the case for the Democratic Party, we need to try to live up to the standards that we wish all would. Therefore, I am challenging my fellow supporters of Barack Obama to challenge themselves.

When we make diaries, we should agree to not use sources that are beyond being merely questionable.  We should not EVER use Newsmax, World Net Daily, and we should certainly without a doubt be careful about using Fox News.  We should not be afraid to call out those that are using tabloids or bullhorns of bull for the right-wing.

We should not act as trolls.  We should hold ourselves to a higher standard than that, and we should not be afraid to call out those who are acting in ways that are unbecoming of the movement.  If a fellow supporter is acting like a fool, I'll continue to let them know that.  We all should even if we feel that the other camp is not making the same effort.

Most of all, we should be willing to say that we WILL support the Democratic nominee come November.  No matter who it is.  I don't care how many in the other camp are saying that it's either their candidate or a third term of George W. Bush's failed policies.   I will not degrade myself, and I hope that those that support Obama as I do will also refrain from degrading themselves.

We are Democrats, Independents, and disillusioned Republicans.  Our fight is first and foremost with the failed policies of the Republican Party. That is why I joined the movement.

Update:

Thank you for the recommendations, it's very refreshing to see another positive diary on the recommended-list(especially a pro-Obama, non anti-Clinton diary). I know some Clinton supporters recommended this, and that just confirms my gut that as Democrats we all want the same things.

It's not a thing amongst Obama's supporters to want to recognize right-wing propaganda like Newsmax and World Net Daily and Fox News for the bull that it is. It's not unique amongst Obama's supporters to want to be united come November. Most of all, it's not an idea owned by the Obama movement to want to fight back against the failed policies of the Republican Party. THAT is why people are joining the movement, THAT is why I became one of the million donors, THAT is why both Senators Clinton and Obama are in this race. Let's not lose sight of that.

Finally; Happy Easter!



Display:


Re: Obama Supporters: Our Standards, and a Call t (2.00 / 10)

Good call, Setrak.


It does not take many words to tell the truth Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
by Gabriele Droz on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:11:38 PM EST

Re: Obama Supporters: Our Standards, and a Call t (2.00 / 8)

Thank you, I'm glad we can still agree on the stuff that truly matters.


"Behold, I send you out as sheep amidst the wolves! Therefore, be as wise as a serpent, And as harmless as a dove."
by Setrak on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:19:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

lets RECC this diary up!! n/t (2.00 / 1)


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:18:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Very nice diary, Setrak (2.00 / 2)

Even toned dialog is the best (and only)  way to bring everyone together for the GE.


by Bill Keaton on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Very nice diary, Setrak (none / 0)

This place represents the diverse but 'can get along' Dem party so-o-o much better than does dkos.


We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.
by fairleft on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:18:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Supporters: Our Standards, and a Call t (2.00 / 3)

While people focus on nonsense and go about tearing down each other and their less preferred candidate, this is what's going on in the world:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/24/world/ middleeast/24iraq.html?hp
BAGHDAD -- "As many as 20 mortar shells were fired Sunday at the heavily fortified Green Zone, one of the fiercest and most sustained attacks on the area in the last year.

The shelling sent thick plumes of dark gray smoke over central Baghdad and ignited a spectacular fire on the banks of the Tigris River. It ushered in a day of violence that claimed the lives of four American soldiers and at least 58 lraqis around the country.

American military officials said the soldiers were killed by a homemade bomb about 10 p.m. as they patrolled southern Baghdad in a vehicle, pushing the number of American service members killed in Iraq closer to 4,000. Another soldier was wounded in the attack."


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:24:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Supporters: Our Standards, and a Call t (2.00 / 1)

Bless you. I am here because I although I could sit and nod yes with the Daily Kos community(which I often do) I think it is important to have intelligent conversations with the other side and try to debunk false claims before they get out of hand.  I agree with everything that you are saying and am surprised how many HRC supporters quote Sean Hannity and Fox news as "sources." Since when did we start believing in racists? I do worry about many of HRC's supporters and these are supposed to be liberals?


by kristannab on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:40:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Supporters: Our Standards, and a Call t (2.00 / 2)

I wrote a diary about just that.  Because I seriously doubt that most of those people are even Democrats.  Maybe trolls just stirring up trouble?  


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:24:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll have to check out your diary. (2.00 / 1)

After only a week here at DD, I had considered the same thing.  Some of the most incredible racist idiocy has been promoted here, it was simply not believable it could come from either HRC supportes or any Dem.  Amazingly, however, a lot of it was ending up on the Rec list.  'Tis a strange amalgam here.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:10:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll have to check out your diary. (2.00 / 1)

Unfortunately alot of this comes from the top down in my opinion. Jerome posts with such anti-Obama vitriol that it emboldens the readers to dredge up and promote the worst kind of garbage. And the name calling is also given cover by the fact that the main moderator of the board seems to have no snark filter himself. I wrote a diary about this myself. If we all let Jerome know that we don't appreciate the tone, then maybe some civility will filter down.


by wasder on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 01:27:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I support Clinton (none / 0)

because, unlike Obama, she has a more ambitious plan for universal health care. She also supports fair trade v. Obama's support for free trade. In other words, she sounds more liberal to me than Obama. And for all the flack she gets for voting to authorize Bushy Boy to go to Iraq, Obama has done nothing with his position of chair of the senate foreign relations committee to get additional NATO cooperation in Afghanistan. He's had a year, for chrissake, but explains he's too busy campaigning. I'm continually amazed he gets a free pass on this while his supporters pillory Clinton for her vote that even Joseph Wilson defended.


by jerseygirl on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:30:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I would have liked to have seen... (2.00 / 2)

a little more beef in your appeal!

But this is a good start!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:19:56 PM EST

100% behind you. (2.00 / 3)

You're right.  I didn't come here to be a troll or a nay-sayer.  While I disagree that we're insignifcant to the larger movement (as the man says, true leadership comes from the ground up, not the top down), what we can do is represent the core value that our similarities outweigh our differences... especially now, when we're dealing with other Democrats.

I will continue to post with an eye for the truth, and to attempt not to lose my temper or act harshly.  I none of my diaries so far have been hit pieces, and I don't think that they are a productive form of discussion.

Let's get to work.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:21:05 PM EST

Re: 100% behind you. (2.00 / 2)

I promise to do the same.


It does not take many words to tell the truth Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
by Gabriele Droz on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:29:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 100% behind you. (2.00 / 2)

Thank you.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:30:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 3)

WORD.

david


by giusd on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:21:49 PM EST

you are an Obama supporter now? (none / 0)


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:20:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you are an (2.00 / 5)

NO i am a DEMOCRAT for 30 years who thinks the attacks on HRC are driving voters to McCain and doesnt want to lose in Nov.  Who gets upset when he sees news from Drudge and Newshound used to attack a democrat. Who doesnt want to see traditional working class democrats move away from the party like they did in 1980.

You know I am a democratic supporter now and every GE since i voted for Carter.

david


by giusd on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:51:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you are an (2.00 / 4)

I would say that attacks on Obama have the same effect...

Personally, I am voting for the Democrat in November..  actually, I am voting for all of them...

Good diary...  glad I can recommend...!


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:54:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

any qualms (none / 0)

with attacks on Obama?


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:54:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: any qualms (2.00 / 3)

Sure here is the difference.  HRC does not have to go to BO supporters and ask for their vote.  
Right since we all know in the end he will get the nomination (sorry it pains me to say that).  However, BO is going to have to go to HRC supporters and ask for their vote.  So you see the difference.

And HRC has alot of reagan democrats who have on many elections crossed over to vote GOP.  That is why they are called Reagan democrats.  They do have someplace to go and vote and i would prefer if BO supporters might consider what these voters are seeing and hearing from the campaign.

daivd


by giusd on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:06:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what do you think a good (2.00 / 1)

solution is?


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:13:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what do you think a good (2.00 / 4)

For BO and his crowd including his internet bullies from dkos to back off.  For BO to not get quote saying "HRC is only trying to bring me down".  For him to say we went over the line and were wrong and we respect the Clinton's as well as her supporters and the real issue is winning on Nov 4th.  To start acting like the front runner and nor calling HRC a lier.  Or put better calling off the dogs.  Just one speech could do that.  

That would be a start.

david


by giusd on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:18:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what do you think a good (2.00 / 3)

I'd like you to consider that he has said these things but they do not get play in the media, which loves a mudfight. The other day I watched a clip of an Obama rally in Oregon and he started out praising Hillary Clinton.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:26:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what do you think a good (2.00 / 0)

you forget to add one thing,

Obama was silent while hillary launched at attacks at him, it worked. He took a hit in the polls so it showed that Obama can't be silent against attacks he hurts him.

Also acting like a front runner and not like its close insults Hillary supporters, and he gets attacked for being arrogant and what not.

so yes he does need to do this, but not untill Hillary stops attacking him, quote ANY conference call from this week, The Campaign no longer builds her up but attacks Obama, forcing him to respond.

If the campaign would stop that, then Obama could do what you want


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:52:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton surrogates should (none / 0)

stop trying to peel away lower middle income "Whites" by appeals to racial prejudices.

To have Clinton surrogates equate Rev. Wright to the KKK is doubly wrong. It's smear by association, compounded with a racist, inaccurate analogy.

HRC should regularly denounce the racist attacks used on her behalf. But she doesn't.


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:51:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton surrogates should (none / 0)

Who has equated Wright with the KKK?

I know who equated Bill Clinton with McCarthy.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 11:04:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: any qualms (none / 0)

Why are we chasing Reagan Democrats? I have no problem appealing to Latinos but these Reagan Democrats are truly no friends of the Democratic party that I as an African-American like to be part of. Reagan is Satan in the African-American community.


by kristannab on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:43:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: any qualms (2.00 / 1)

If Reagan Democrats means union members and their descendants then the Dems should be courting their votes.

If Reagan Democrats means working class bigots, it's probably a waste for either HRC or Obama to court them.


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:52:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: any qualms (none / 0)

HRC is chasing the bigots. Sad but true.


by kristannab on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:55:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: any qualms (none / 0)

I think her campaign hopes to fan the flames of racial divisiveness. I think that makes her immoral.


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:59:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: any qualms (2.00 / 1)

>>>>I think her campaign hopes to fan the flames of racial divisiveness. I think that makes her immoral.

Hereeeeee we go!  so much for "unity"!

Smearing the Clintons as racists ensures - what?


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 11:08:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: any qualms (none / 0)

I'm ashamed to admit I voted for Reagan the first time...he promised to balance the budget!  Of course, he lied.  I was young and foolish then and didn't vote for him a second time.  Have voted Dem ever since.  I support Obama now.

I loved Hillary as a first lady and I think her serious candidacy in this election has opened the door for a woman to be elected president in the future.  


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:30:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Reagan Democrats (none / 0)

As I understood the term, "Reagan Democrats" were upper middle class/middle class suburban professionals who were lifelong Democrats, raised in Demcratic households, who crossed over to Reagan because of his economic policies, specifically tax cuts.  I do not remember ever hearing racism as part of that equation.


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:37:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you are an Obama supporter now? (2.00 / 2)

No, we're an equal opportunity employer.  Giving both voices their say until the end, when the winner if clear, but not before that, and that's as it should be.  Hang in there, unless you're afraid of the outcome.  I'm afraid too.  So let's work it out, because without that, either candidate's win will be questioned.  If we cut this one short, we're sure to have divisions enough, on either side, to keep us from winning the General election.  Let's keep that in mind.


It does not take many words to tell the truth Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
by Gabriele Droz on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:33:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Supporters: Our Standards, and a Call t (2.00 / 5)

I agree 100%

if we are so sure that Obama will be the nominee then there is no reason to act uncivilized or as trolls, at this point its only a matter of time.

being Idiots or trolls only hurts our cause


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:23:47 PM EST

the beat goes on... (none / 0)

True - and if Obama supporters really thought Obama had "won" - they'd be reaching out to Hillary supporters demonstrating Obama's "unity" campaign.
Instead - they continue pushing the Clintons are racists meme because this will somehow help the superdelegates decide that Obama is the "best" nominee.
Natually the supers want a candidate whose supporters have screamed RACISM! where none existed.
Seemingly cognitive dissonance from Obama supporters.

But not really - since in Obama's grand Race speech he fused Hillary with using the "Race Card."
And so the beat goes on...


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 11:17:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't sweat the outliers (2.00 / 0)

Some Obama supporters are not all Obama supporters.

Quite honestly, I see the "Obama campaign smears the Clintons as racists" a lot more often than I see "The Clintons are racists."

It's a two way street: those of us Obama supporters that don't push the racial issue resent the fact that we're being attacked here as if we were promoting "The Clintons are racist" schtick.  I'd say that most of us aren't.

Noting that someone has used race to their advantage (which has happened on both sides of the campaign), either in a positive or negative light, is NOT racism.  Using other people's racism for your own benefit is cynical and bad for politics in general, but it's still not racism.

I understand that everyone is pretty charged about race, and it's good if we get some open dialogue going about it, but finger pointing isn't all that helpful on either side: be the first to step up to the plate and refuse to let the important issues be reduced to who pushed whom first on the playground.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 11:46:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice. (2.00 / 2)

Classy Setrak.


by MediaFreeze on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:28:05 PM EST

i heartily agree (2.00 / 2)

i am as rabid a hillary hater as they come, but this primary season has taught me so much...

i came to this site two years ago, and in fact my very first comment (in march of 06) i wrote about how i will never vote for hillary for president (i was really angry about the flag burning bs) and quickly resumed lurking in the spirit of "if you can't say anything nice..."

watching this whole thing devolve on both sides has been so awful and i truly regret any way that i have participated in that...  but i can no longer lurk.  i must work to build the peace i want for my party.  which means expecting more from myself and from other obama supporters.

thanks for this.... and good luck


by elie on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:33:04 PM EST

Re: i heartily agree (2.00 / 4)

I always thought that nominating Hilary Clinton would be a huge mistake.  I still think that.  However, in a race against John McCain, there is absolutely no doubt that I would work hard to make sure she gets into the White House.  Two terms of Bush are enough.


by StrangeAnomaly on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:38:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i heartily agree (2.00 / 1)

"Most of all, we should be willing to say that we WILL support the Democratic nominee come November."

If we live in contested states, that's fine.  I'd certainly vote Clinton if I lived in Pennsylvania or Colorado.

I live in Georgia.  Hillary will not come close here.  I'm going to vote my conscience and nothing less.  It depends upon how she conducts her campaign.  And so far, it's not looking good.


by maconblue on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:18:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Even losing vote totals matter (2.00 / 1)

If you vote Democratic in a state that goes for the Republican, the vote totals are still a matter of public record, and the Dean/Obama 50-state strategy really does look at those numbers in trying to court votes in every state.  It's one of the reasons that Obama has been so successful in the primary, by understanding that there are blue voters in red states, and many times they have a huge, untapped well of enthusiasm.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:11:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Even losing vote totals matter (2.00 / 1)

Let's not forget about the other Democrats on the ballot beneath the Pres/VP ticket.


"Behold, I send you out as sheep amidst the wolves! Therefore, be as wise as a serpent, And as harmless as a dove."
by Setrak on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:15:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Even losing vote totals matter (2.00 / 0)

I do have an "untapped well of enthusiasm" for Obama.  And I'll enthusiastically vote for him in November.

There was once a time when I'd have enthusiastically voted for Hillary had she won the nomination.  She systematically worked to destroy that enthusiasm and convert it into profound dislike.

I think Hillary's a good person who has been buried by Mark Penn and the quest for the ring.  Casting him off would be a good start to regaining my trust.


by maconblue on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:17:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Penn (none / 0)

I have some reason to believe that Clinton would dispense with Penn if she aquired the nomination.  That would remove the conflict of interest that Penn has with campaigning against the managers of McCain's campaign, who belong to one of his subsidiary companies.  Their aegis beliefs are that you don't work against company interests, and they haven't had to yet, since both campaigns are working against Obama.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 02:05:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Supporters: Our Standards, and a Call t (2.00 / 2)

I support you 100%.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:46:29 PM EST

hear, hear (2.00 / 2)


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:46:46 PM EST

Re: Obama Supporters: Our Standards, and a Call t (2.00 / 2)

Nice diary.


McCain: The Past, Obama: The Future
by KathyM on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:57:09 PM EST

Re: Obama Supporters: Our Standards, and a Call t (2.00 / 2)

I wholeheartedly agree.

I would also contend that those of us who double as Kossacks should also call out similar unfair attacks if we see them over on dKos.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:43:31 PM EST

Re: I do (2.00 / 4)

But the Clintons have really really pained me as an African-American and I am not alone. I invite everyone to check out some of the African-American blogs such as Jack and Jill politics to see that we aren't alone.  I know people want to call us racist but we are truly hurt and a lot of people refuse to understand this.


by kristannab on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:46:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I do (2.00 / 1)

I'm not calling anyone racist, and I'm certainly not suggesting you couldn't post your opinions here or elsewhere.

But I AM agreeing that any anti-Clinton articles citing sources like Newsmax, Fox News or any other member of the GOP rogue's gallery are not appropriate. (Nor are those making wild, tinfoil-hat conspiracy theories about the Clintons or just simply calling them names.) It's a common sense thing, not an attempt to devalue legitimate opinions.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:57:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Supporters: (none / 0)

This is great, but what are the odds that the shameless trolls of the Clinton smear machine like Universal and susanhu could stick to such standards?  Odds are low.


NJ Hussein Independent
by NJIndependent on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:06:53 PM EST

Re: Obama Supporters: (2.00 / 3)

So what should we do? Ignore those diarists or go in there and try to engage respectfully?

I find when I go into those I have to debunk myths and the back in forth starts to feel like rehearsed lines in a play. There's no progress, no development of ideas, no give and take.  So is it better to just leave those alone?

I really want advice.  Thank you in advance.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:28:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Supporters: (2.00 / 1)

I"m with you. It's exhaustive trying to debunk myths with folks who refuse to listen.


by kristannab on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:47:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Supporters: (2.00 / 1)

Get in there but be civil.  Those myths need to be debunked.  Don't let an entire diary's comments be unfounded smears on the likely Dem nominee.  Regardless of the dialogue with the original poster, there needs to be balance so that a potential Obama voter doesn't think our candidate is a Muslim terrorist for instance.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:52:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly correct (2.00 / 1)

Patience is a virtue, after all.  It's exhausting to explain the same things over and over, but the alternative is allowing them an echo chamber where they can just get more and more wound up.

Yelling at them will only make them more fervent in their beliefs, making them feel persecuted.

We can be smart and stand fast without lashing out.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:21:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Supporters: (none / 0)

I think you're doing it right - I really admire you and the other Obama supporters who are willing to go over the same ground time and time again, patiently pointing out inaccuracy and fallacy.  I don't have the patience (or html skills)to do it myself - so make a point of distributing mojo instead.  Please don't give up - an echo chamber doesn't do anyone any good.  It's why I only read diaries at Kos, never comments.


by interestedbystander on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:25:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Supporters: Our Standards, and a Call t (2.00 / 4)

We, the Obama supporters here, should remember--and be guided by--the campaign's stated values: respect, empower, include.

We do that, we'll be fine.  Others may or may not choose other paths and other values.


by dell on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:18:57 PM EST

Amen. (2.00 / 2)

You are right on.


"Behold, I send you out as sheep amidst the wolves! Therefore, be as wise as a serpent, And as harmless as a dove."
by Setrak on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:33:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Supporters: Our Standards, and a Call t (2.00 / 1)

Thanks for explaining all the nasty comments to my diary, "Obama Rising". Still, are you sure these really snide comments aren't Republicans? About voting for whoever gets the nomination. If the super delegates overturn the people all bets are off. I may vote but it will be hard. Not because I am against Hillary but because I am against dirty pool. Her campaign is getting pretty close.
deLesseline
by deLesseline on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:31:43 PM EST

Forgive them. (none / 0)

They're desperate.  Things will even off soon enough.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 11:48:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Supporters: Our Standards, and a Call t (2.00 / 2)

Great diary.


by jdusek on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:38:30 PM EST

Re: Obama Supporters: Our Standards (2.00 / 2)

Yes, by all means, let's work to improve the discourse on this site.


by rfahey22 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:54:47 PM EST

It is time that we (2.00 / 2)

unite as a party and get over this bickering.  I totally agree that we should be respectful and engage with TRUTH. Not use fallacy. Not use assumption. It has been done by both sides. Great diary that needed to be written.


by SocialDem on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:04:25 PM EST

If it were only so easy. (2.00 / 4)

My position is simple: Obama was not my first choice, but he aligns closely with my values and even more closely with my larger political goals as a movement Progressive.

Then, when I come here, I see diary after diary with completely over-the-top outrageous smears, stuff that literally makes Free Republic look tame. Flagrant, obvious lies, easily debunked with a two minute Google search or simple, basic logic.

That needs to be confronted.

And no, the fact that there is horrible stuff elsewhere about Hillary does not excuse it. In fact, it is borderline infantile to point to these things and then, in the way that contests go, to try to top them. You hear a lot about Clinton-haters; what you don't hear about, because of the newness of them, are the Obama-haters, but they are every bit as, if not more virulent, than the Clinton-haters.

So what does one do with them?

I know I'm voting Democrat in November, and I've never said otherwise. Many of the haters, on both sides, I'm not so sure about, and that makes me, and should make every Democrat, both angry and sad. Here we are, at the close of the Bush era, and some zealots are so enamored of their preferred liberal Senator with identical voting records that they'd rather continue the atrocities of the last seven years than hold their tongue and their nose in a voting booth - because none of us, presumably, have ever done that before.

It is to weep.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:05:28 PM EST

Hear! Hear! (2.00 / 2)


by SocialDem on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:08:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Doors (none / 0)

There's a Door and behind that door is Obama, his supporters and me supporting Obama.

On that door is a sign.  That sign says "The Clintons are racist."

I will not walk through that door.

There's another door.

Behind that Door is Obama and me supporting Obama.

There's a sign on that door.

The sign reads:  "The Clintons are Liars."

I will not walk through THAT door, either.

If Obama would like to situate himself behind a different door, then we go from there.


by Edgar08 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:32:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doors (none / 0)

where is this coming from?


by wasder on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:34:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I figure the context is (none / 0)

The enmity that exists in this Primary and how it will hurt us in the General Election.


by Edgar08 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I figure the context is (2.00 / 2)

I think we can agree that it's on both sides.  Either candidate will have to bring the party back together for the sake of winning in November and preventing a continuation of Bush's failed policies.


"Behold, I send you out as sheep amidst the wolves! Therefore, be as wise as a serpent, And as harmless as a dove."
by Setrak on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I know (none / 0)

I'm setting down some limits that only apply to me.


by Edgar08 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:48:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama (2.00 / 1)

never said that Clinton are racists.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:01:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama could say (none / 0)

They are not.

When Geffen called them liars he could have said he disagreed.


by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:03:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

again (2.00 / 1)

Obama never called them racists.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:06:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That doesn't help (none / 0)

The only comment he's ever said he disagreed with is Power calling Clinton a Monster.

So at least I can be assured he doesn't think she's a monster.


by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:11:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

sigh (none / 0)

you are really nit picking.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 01:16:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama's (none / 0)

a racist and liar.

Just testing a theory.


by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 01:23:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That doesn't help (none / 0)

I'm with you Edgar08. While I appreciate the desire for BO supporters to abandon the hateful tactics of personal destruction I'm afraid it is much too late for many of us. There are many, many "lunch bucket" Democrats, called "Archie Bunker" democrats after OH who will never support BO. Never. There's no possibility for reconciliation after months of racist and sexist attacks by BO's supporters.

America is ready to elect an African American president but not one who has been a 20 year member of an anti-semtic, anti-american and racist church.

I'm sorry for the person who feels hurt by Bill and Hillary Clinton for their "racism." They have actually done more to benefit minorities by working for economic and social equality than any two democrats in the past 20+ years. Yes, they've done far more than BO. That they were painted as racist was an Axelrod strategy -- I'm afraid you've been bamboozled by your own candidate.


by seattlegonz on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 01:38:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama and his supporters (none / 0)

Have completely underestimated the impact.  They completely underestimate the loyalty to Clinton.

Us "Archie Bunker" types, us "low info" voters.  

We're not uber-bloggers.  We don't do online petitions.  We don't organize the same way.  We're too busy to organize in general.  We're not that loud, either.  Not half as many of us scream and yell on the internet.  We don't shake our signs as energentically as they do in the caucusses.  So in a way they just wouldn't know.


by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 02:11:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and his supporters (none / 0)

Exactly. It's too bad that BO has been so intent on winning the primary that was willing to sacrifice the general in order to do it. Not that he was successful, because he hasn't won it and there's still enough time for Hillary to make her case. I'm confident she will be our nominee, MI and FL will be counted and Democrats will be united in November. I also am confident that she will do more to create economic equality and social justice than any president since FDR.

Here's a hysterical youtube for you Edgar...it had me laughing until I was crying:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvrIKrK1X so&feature=user


by seattlegonz on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 02:33:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and his supporters (none / 0)

"Exactly. It's too bad that BO has been so intent on winning the primary that was willing to sacrifice the general in order to do it."

Replace BO w/HRC


by mikeinsf on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 02:58:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and his supporters (none / 0)

I know you BO supporters like to make HRC responsible for everything bad that happens -- but she's not responsible for the horrible way you've treated her and her supporters. Only you and BO are responsible for that.


by seattlegonz on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:02:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

His campaign sure pushed it (none / 0)

From the top levels.


by Trickster on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 02:42:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doors (2.00 / 2)

Obama never said that the Clintons were liars or racists.  They are neither for the record -- this from an Obama supporter.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:54:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doors (none / 0)

What did Obama say when Geffen called the Clintons liars?


by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:07:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doors (2.00 / 1)

I honestly don't know...did he call them liars?  If not, my point stands.  Obama is not responsible for what other people say or do whether they be Geffen or Wright.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:12:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That's the problem (none / 0)

I think he agrees with you about that.

He's happy to smile and say "It didn't come from me."


by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:13:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's the problem (none / 0)

The same could be said about Hillary.  When obviously false rumors emerged that Obama was a Muslim, Hillary did nothing to debunk them.  When pressed for an answer as to whether she belived him to be a follower of Islam, she gave a luke-warm response "Not that I know of"--allowing others to continue to believe that there might be information theretofore unknown to Hillary upon which they might base a belief that he was indeed a Muslim.  While I would have liked to have seen her stand up and say that the charges were rediculous, I understand why she did not.  Its good politics and so long as she did not start the rumors herself, we can't really fault her for what she did.  That goes double for Obamas unwillingness to challenge Geffens opinion that the Clintons are deceitful.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:23:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

She Said (none / 0)

"No" like more than 10 times.


by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:26:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

sources please (none / 0)


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:27:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I know her response (none / 0)

KROFT: You don't believe that Senator Obama is a Muslim?

CLINTON: Of course not.



by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:29:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She Said (2.00 / 1)

Then qualified the "no" by saying "not that I'm aware"--leaving others to continue to believe phony rumors.  


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:28:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That's the Tweety Fineman spin (none / 0)

And it's wrong.


by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:30:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's the Tweety Fineman spin (none / 0)

You're saying she didn't say "not that I'm aware".  I've seen the Youtube video, its what she said.  At the very least, can we agree that the most principled way to avoid any confusion on the part of those inclined to believe Obama might be a Muslim would have been for her to say "Those rumors are ridiculous and have no basis.  I've been to church services with Obama (which she has) and I know that he is a devout and practicing Christian."  I know why she left some room for believing these rumors and I don't fault her too much for it, but we all know that she could have done more to shut down the rumor mill.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:36:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's the Tweety Fineman spin (none / 0)

Tell you what.

If Obama would have said "Not that I'm aware of" when asked about Geffen calling the Clintons liars, I'd have thought that was progress for him.

As it stands, can you at least admit that Clinton's first three words to answer the question were:  "Of course not."

Can you admit that?


by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:40:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's the Tweety Fineman spin (none / 0)

I have already admitted it...but these are words that were later qualified by her caveat that her belief that Obama is a Muslim is based upon limited knowledge of his religious beliefs.  Her knowledge of these beliefs was certainly not limited and for her to hold out the possibility that Obama could be some Islamic manchurian candidate played to the basest racism of the electorate--distateful yes, but that's politics for ya.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:52:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

LOL (none / 0)

Tell you what.  

Lets revisit a potential answer Obama could have given to Geffen's comments.  Is Clinton a liar?

OBAMA: Of course not.

KROFT: You don't believe that she's a liar or implying? Right.

OBAMA: No. No. Why would I? No, there is nothing to base that on, as far as I know.

KROFT: It's just scurrilous --

OBAMA: Look, I, myself, have been the target of many ridiculous attacks. I have a great deal of sympathy for anybody who gets, you know, smeared with those kinds of attacks that go on all the time.

That'd been fine with me.  I would have looked at that and said "good answer" and I wouldn't have ever started whining about the "as far as I know".

As it stood, he couldn't even do that much.

If you think she didn't say "No" there's nothing I can do about that at this point.


by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 01:17:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (none / 0)

We can agree to disagree about it.  What exactly did Obama say about the Geffen affair, however.  I honestly never heard his response.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 01:32:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not his job (none / 0)

To comment on what other people say.

"We aren't going to get in the middle of a disagreement between the Clintons and someone who was once one of their biggest supporters. It is ironic that the Clintons had no problem with David Geffen when he was raising them $18 million and sleeping at their invitation in the Lincoln bedroom. It is also ironic that Senator Clinton lavished praise on Monday and is fully willing to accept today the support of South Carolina state Sen. Robert Ford, who said if Barack Obama were to win the nomination, he would drag down the rest of the Democratic Party because 'he's black.'"

I'm sure you'll like that response.  It's very snarky, and it contains the Republican Radio Pundit Approved Lincoln Bedroom Talking Point.  Look up Limbaugh and Lincoln Bedroom on Google if you doubt me.

In any case.  Here's my question to you:

If Kroft asked the question.  "Is Obama a muslim?"  And Clinton responded:

"We aren't going to get in the middle of a disagreement between Obama and conservative media pundits.  It's ironic that Obama wants to reach out to conservatives when it's obvious to us how he's going to be treated."

Do address this question:  What would you have thought of that kind of answer?

Sidenote.

Clinton had Robert Ford apologize.  Just the FYI on that.


by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 01:58:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's the Tweety Fineman spin (none / 0)

How can anybody "vouch" for another person's personal religious beliefs?  You may assume from observing the values their actions seem to you to reflect.

You can "take his word for it" if he tells you about his beliefs.  But you cannot know his heart and vouch for what he believes.

How can anybody who had ever been to law school flat out state that another person believes anything?   You get taught from the outset to tell the difference between direct evidence and hearsay, fact and assumption.

We assume he is not Muslim because he says he is not and he says he has attended a non-Muslim church for twenty years. But we cannot attest to his belief or anybody else's.  If we were being honest we would have to add, if repeatedly asked for the record, a statement of the reality...something like "as far as I know".

It is one of many cases when the obvious interpretation is skipped over , and the next and the next  until one arrives at a real stretch to something to get outraged about.  It has become one of the hallmarks of the Obama campaign and gives the appearence of  symptoms of some seriously divisive mentality.  What would you call it if a white candidate did it?  

Obama sells for profit the story that he used drugs as a young man, including cocaine.  If any person mentions that story that he revealed and published for money, then they must have a racist purpose to make some statement that all Blacks use drugs, or to make all whites vote against Obama.  How far a stretch is that?  Why can't it be said that he referred to doing things in his youth, like Robert Johnson said before he was forced to apologize?  Mr. Johnson, a wealthy very successful Black Hillary supporter was forced to step aside and publically humiliate himself because the Obama campaign sensitized the media that it was racist to mention or even hint at Obama's story of drug use...the one he told for money and fame.

The governor of New Hampshire's husband can say that the Republicans will use his admission of cocaine use against him in the general.  The Obama campaign and some media carry on about Billy Shaheen's "clear intention" to promote racist stereotypes and use totally untolerated language to the degree that he is forced to resign and Hillary's New Hamshire campaign advisor.  Geraldine Ferarro can say of her nomination to be Vice President that she believed it would not have happened had she been male, that Jesse Jackson would not have won so many primaries had he been white and that Obama would not be in this position if he were not Black.  She was talking about efforts to break down barriers for women and Blacks in these comments and about the support of people who have a strong interest in seeing those barriers broken.

Ferraro apparently thought it was obvious that the party has many members who have long supported the breaking of racial and gender barriers in political office. She might also have thought that winning 90% of the Black vote suggested some solidarity and pride among Black voters for the chance to vote for a Black candidate who might win. She has been one who has worked for it for  40 years.  But no.  We are not allowed to assume that is what she was talking about nor that those were her BELIEFS, acted upon publically for decades and stated repeatedly since the "incident". We must leap over what she asserts and the obvioust interpretation of her comment and go to some outer edge and assume that her intention was to belittle Obama and all of his accomplishments. It was an attack on Obama, once again. The racists are all after him.

We are to KNOW from our outrageous interpretation that she intended to offend all Black people and to arouse the ire of white voters .  And she is forced to leave the Clinton NY Finance Committee amid calls of "Racist".   And then the Clintons see their statements which have very obvious, benign content labeled in the campaign and the media as racist. We have white liberal and Black leaders take to the microphones to say that they had been called by Obama and apprised of a list of comments Obama found "very troubling".

Jesse Jackson said at the time that he told Obama he 'did not see the comments as racist' and that he had 'advised Obama to drop it and forget it'.  He said that Obama had reached him by phone at a meeting in India to tell him about the comments from the Clintons.

Kennedy endorsed Obama after the call and left immediately to campaign after going before the cameras to condemn the comments.  Rep Cliburn announced on a host of shows the next few days that he had been called and he warned he would go back on his word to remain neutral if the comments didn't stop.  It was a stunning disregard of several more obvious interpretations, whipped up directly by memo from the campaign to Black groups and media and a series of phone calls from Obama personally, followed by press events describing the calls.  

This active effort to "sensitize"  the media and leaders to how "offensive and troubling" these comments were give every appearance of a man who is either extremely thin-skinned, finds racists behind every corner and appeals for help to punish all those people out there trying to get him.  OR he is a calculating political smear merchant using the fact that he is Black to gain liberal white support and the solidarity of the Black voter by attributing racist motives to his opponents. This behavior, no matter how many speeches on race may follow, os not the behavior of  a uniter.  These are the actions give the appearance of much lower motives, as far as I know.

IN the Newsweek  piece on Obama this week is a story from his high school basketball coach.  He says that Barry accused him of benching him in a  game because the coach was a racist.  The coach says he told him that he benched him because he had just taken two bad shots in a row.
So this tactic is not recently acquired, apparently.  


by itsadryheat on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 02:38:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's the Tweety Fineman spin (2.00 / 1)

"We assume he is not Muslim because he says he is not and he says he has attended a non-Muslim church for twenty years. But we cannot attest to his belief or anybody else's.  If we were being honest we would have to add, if repeatedly asked for the record, a statement of the reality...something like "as far as I know"."

You are right that, technically, Clinton cannot "know" whether Obama is a Muslim.  However, she had direct knowledge of Obama's religious practices and had good reason to know that the rumors being spread were for political purposes and had no basis in reality.  Some accusations are so outlandish that an unqualified attestment of "knowledge" is appropriate--especially when acquiecing to the propagation of such a rumor has the potential to promote a divisive racial stereotype.  

For instance, despite the fact that I am an Obama supporter I "know" that the Clintons are not racists based upon their historic support of civil rights (they may use other people's racism to promote their interests, but that's another story).  When asked whether I think they are racists I tell people, clearly and unequivocally "No, they are not".  I do not say, "As far as I know", despite the fact that, technically, I cannot see inside their hearts to discern whether they secretly hate black people.  The accusation in itself is foolish, and I repudiate it in no uncertain terms as it has the potential to sully the reputation of a couple who, while not perfect, have done much to promote progressive ideology.  Any problem with me not qualifying my response to that question?


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 02:55:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Upon the question being re-asked (none / 0)

Go back and watch the video.  After the question was asked, and she gave as unequivocal and forceful a "no" answer as can be given, she was clearly shocked and taken aback when the questioner asked her the exact same question again.  She said no, several different ways, stumbling over her words a little because she was so surprised by and suspicious of the question, then at the end said "so far as I know" in kind of a faint and questioning tone, the way you do when somebody asks you a mystifying question that makes you wonder if they know something you don't know.

That's EXACTLY what happened.


by Trickster on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 02:45:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bill Clinton is a proven liar, (none / 0)

when the subject was Monica Lewinsky.  He even admitted it.  

For the record, I'm a liar, too.  I have never lied about a war I started or people I have killed, but I have lied about girls I have schtupped on many, many occasions, so I can sympathize with Bill in that one respect.


by Dumbo on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:13:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The fact that you think (none / 0)

you're a liar too doesn't help.


by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:14:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you claiming you're not? (none / 0)

"Human being" may be defined as "the animal that lies."


by Trickster on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 02:47:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill Clinton is a proven liar, (2.00 / 1)

Let's definitely not bring up Lewinsky..  I'm not a fan of low blows.


"Behold, I send you out as sheep amidst the wolves! Therefore, be as wise as a serpent, And as harmless as a dove."
by Setrak on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:15:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

be respectful (none / 0)


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:27:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Uh... (none / 0)

I just take it as a matter of faith that all political candidates are liars.  I have never  worried about the possibility that there might be one that doesn't.  I just don't like it when they lie about obvious things to my face in a disrespectful manner, or lie about things that are critically important.  Like the war, for instance.